[publictransport] response re booking system
Labyrinth
alanpar at labyrinth.net.au
Fri Feb 8 19:50:23 EST 2008
Hi Julia and Jillian,
I have just extracted data from the census journey to work data for
Victoria and deducted from it data from the Melbourne (SD). This
data is referred to as the "full classification list by sex " it is
based on usual place of residence. Chris is familiar with the
Victorian data and I collated the Melbourne data with it.
It appears that on Census day in the rest of Victoria there only 89
bicycle and public dual and triple mode journeys to work : only 57
of these where by train and bicycle. Another 4 where by "train, bus
and bicycle" and 13 by "train , car as driver, and bicycle". It
appears that given the total number of trains it would be ridiculous
to put a booking system in for such a small number of cyclists.
Especially when a unknown number of them park their bike at stations
and dont put them on the train.
Note that in Melbourne on Census day 1142 person travelled by train
and bike and most of them parked their bike at a station or where not
travelling with the peak hour flow and put their bikes on trains
which had plenty of room going in the other direction . A survey
(DOI) estimated that only 100 of these bike rail commuters actually
put their bikes on the trains, travelling with the flow, in the rush
hours. In the rest of Victoria we know very little because the rail
companies have never known who is travelling where and what there
special needs are.
What we are looking at seems like is a storm in a teacup but its not
really because so many cyclists drive to work because there is no
secure parking for
bikes at most rail stations. At the 110 or so stations that are not
staffed from the first to last train no cyclist in his right mind
would park their bike. And on such stations there are very few bike
lockers and most are not used because they have never been managed
competently.
Bye Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
On 08/02/2008, at 12:51 PM, jillian gibson wrote:
> Hi Julia,
>
> l agree with what you have mentioned and understand being able to
> get bikes
> on VLine services for any reason is impt.
>
> The only thing is, it is most likely that if they are going to
> introduce a
> booking system it will be a blanket booking otherwise it will
> possibly be
> too confusing/limiting.
>
> I dont know if all VLine trains, re locomotives which usually have
> a guards
> carriage, is available on all lines, which l imagine would be. What
> l take
> you are referring to is the locomotive service, surely being able
> to only
> book on these might limit the time you can travel, linking in with
> xyz etc?
> But then again l imagine that would be better than no access at all.
>
> The issue from how l see it, is that the complaints was related to
> bikes on
> all trains in peak hour travel. On the whole, but not limited to,
> peak hour
> commuter cyclists it seems are the majority going to work, then
> there are
> schoolies and recreational etc
>
> So the target is affecting those who need to get to work first off.
> If a
> booking system in peak hour or other, that had limitations on the
> numbers of
> cyclists who could get on a train were introduced, this would limit
> the
> capacity of all cyclists including those wanting to book their
> bikes to go
> touring, as the number that could be booked would no doubt be less
> than the
> number of bikes that would be allowed on.
>
> l can see limited advantages to a booking system, but l ask that
> you see the
> disadvantages if the system as it mostly likely will, comes with
> limitations, as in the immediate simply not enough space to
> accommodate all
> bikes, people, luggage etc.
>
> If a booking system were in place for locomotives only, and bikes
> could only
> be booked onto these trains, this would seriously impact on a large
> number
> of commuter cyclists who need to get to work and school, locos
> generally
> dont run early enough.
>
> lm just wanting to put out some thoughts about this issue in the event
> of.........at the meeting we had no time to discuss anything in
> detail.
>
> lm a touring cyclists myself, having toured locally and overseas so
> l can
> sympathise, but even booking systems overseas l experience, showed
> it wasnt
> the answer by any means, as it still didnt provide enough
> facilities. And
> the common answer was just book when a space was available, which
> in most
> instances did not fit in with my touring timetable.
>
>
> Jill Gibson
> 03-5472 3098
> 0409404791
> **********************************************************************
> ******
> **********************************************************************
> ******
> ***********
> mistress soap maker
> bee whisperer
> goddess of cycling and recycling
> bantam tamer
>
> "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way! On a quiet
> day, if
> you listen carefully, you can hear her breathing"
> Arundhati Roy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <publictransport-request at yarrabug.org>
> To: <publictransport at yarrabug.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:00 PM
> Subject: publictransport Digest, Vol 2, Issue 7
>
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: publictransport Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6 (jillian gibson)
>> 2. Re: publictransport Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6 (Julia Blunden)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:36:08 +1100
>> From: "jillian gibson" <jillg at vic.chariot.net.au>
>> Subject: Re: [publictransport] publictransport Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6
>> To: <publictransport at yarrabug.org>, "Brianna Laugher"
>> <brianna.laugher at gmail.com>, "Chris Star" <telstar at cfsmtb.net>
>> Message-ID: <002801c86964$bbea4e00$a756543a at q3o7f9>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Ah Brianna, you have a way with words and observations .... love it!
>>
>> Must be something in the bike water as l woke this morning feeling
>> a tad
>> under the proverbial myself.......
>>
>> So folks, all of what Brianna stated is a damn good summary and
>> feel for
> the
>> mtg, which sadly was poorly, read not at all, facilited The
>> Minister had
> to
>> deal with a table of very passionate folks with hands flying in
>> the air in
>> all directions, but trying to be contrained and polite at the same
>> time.
> It
>> was difficult to really juice out a set of issues as we all had a
>> version/part of the 'solution'. But what was discussed a bit
>> thinly on the
>> ground was the actual permanent repeal of the ban, which yes will
>> be soon,
>> but l suspect its the 'conditions' not the future plans, that will
> accompany
>> the repeal which may be contentious.
>>
>> l say this because the Min mentioned she was concerned that with the
> lifting
>> of the ban, she was nervous there would be a 'rush' by cyclists to
>> get on
>> trains..... not quite her words but you get the drift. This is an
>> unsubstantaited fear and should not be the basis for the immediate
> planning
>> and decisions.
>>
>> Certainly education, signage will be easy, where to locate bikes in
> specific
>> carriages good idea and easyish to do, this is already set up in
>> Vline,
> and
>> here comes the but, the Min seemed very interested in a booking
>> system.
> This
>> can only be linked to limits on number of bikes and times, else
>> there is
> no
>> need to have a booking system, besides getting data on the number
>> of bikes
>> on trains.
>>
>> (Vline trains at present technically only allow 4 bikes-2 per
>> carraige-
> per
>> standard train. As things stand, we can get as many bikes on
>> trains as
>> possible, and like we are talking 5-7 bikes, more or less, but we
>> are not
>> talking this number of bikes all being on the Bendigo to SC
>> trains, we are
>> talking short distances in general 2-3 stops).
>>
>>> From the immediate there will no doubt be the future planning etc as
>> outlined in Brianna notes. l have added feedback from Skye
>> Holcombe, MAV
>> policy advisor, which l have been given second hand, so please
>> leave her
>> name etc out of any web postings etc
>>
>> lm sending feedback to the Min, not on first names yet with Lynne,
>> and
>> Brianna and l didnt manage to get her business card (with direct
>> ph line)
> as
>> we did from Jason and Harry. Feedback will be in relation to
>> - negatives of a booking system
>> -promotion of fold up bikes - cost issue and more importantly THIS
>> PUTS
> THE
>> ONUS BACK ONTO CYCLISTS AGAIN!
>> - that there are issues with bikes on trains in peak and non peak
>> hours,
> so
>> the issue is acrosss the board
>> - lack of recognition and support of the need for good management
>> (vline)
> re
>> ordinary luggage, prams, shopping, freight, oversized luggage, wheel
> chairs,
>> zimmer frames, and bikes etc etc all of which impact on the space
>> that
> can
>> be allocated to bikes, but in practise bikes are in the scheme of
>> things
>> last priority, but it seems that the increased number of bikes has
>> clashed
>> with the above. So even though we can technically only fit 4 bikes
>> on a
>> train, bikes are in actual fact at the end of the food chain
>>
>> lm also going to suggest to the Min that one of her staff should
>> be on
> hand
>> to assist with facilitation of next mtg.
>>
>> Thats it for now, the following is what Skye Holcombe wrote and
>> emailed to
>> Councils............
>>
>>
>> Key outcome of the meeting:
>>
>> -Minister Kosky indicated she is keen to soon announce that the
>> banning of
>> bicycles on metropolitan and VLines trains during peak periods
>> will be
>> lifted indefinitely (the ban is currently not being enforced).
>> -The Minister does not want to announce this policy shift without
>> also
>> announcing a suite of practical and achievable longer term solutions.
> Hence,
>> the announcement will be made as soon as potential measures have been
> given
>> due consideration.
>> -The Minister emphasized that she wished to make an announcement very
> soon.
>>
>> Potential solutions Government expressed interest in exploring:
>> -The Minister is aware there is a shortage of good storage
>> facilities at
>> stations around Victoria and this is something her team is looking
>> in to.
>> -The promotion of folding bicycles (cost between $500-$2000) which
>> may be
>> permitted on trams and buses as well as trains (Minister will
>> consult with
>> Bus Association of Victoria and Yarra Trams).
>> -Short of providing more trains in peak periods, Connex will
>> examine ways
> to
>> modify train carriages to allow the transportation of bicycles.
> Suggestions
>> from the group included flip up chairs, bike hooks and clear
>> designation,
>> through signage, promotion and education for bike users and other
>> train
>> passengers, about where bicycles should be parked while in transit.
>> -Education was highlighted as key to encouraging sustainable
>> transport
>> options and achieving greater public acceptance of bikes on trains.
>> -The group encouraged government to explore 'best practice'
>> options from
>> around the world, including the strapping of bikes onto buses. The
> Minister
>> highlighted safety concerns as an obstacle to hooking bikes on the
>> back of
>> trams.
>>
>> Minister Kosky acknowledged:
>> -Consultation was inept and her department had made a mistake in the
> design
>> and delivery of this policy.
>> -Different solutions may be required for VLine passengers/
>> commuters (VLine
>> user groups presented issues on behalf of rural/regional train
>> users).
>> -Passenger congestion on trains is the source of the problem which
>> has
> been,
>> and will continue to be exacerbated by population growth (18
>> Connex trains
>> are on order and due for delivery by end of year 2009. Velocity
>> trains
> have
>> also been ordered).
>> -This issue has highlighted the role of bicycles in encouraging
> sustainable
>> transport options, particularly in the context of reducing
>> Victoria's road
>> congestion.
>> -The government want to encourage bicycle usage and understand the
>> message
>> from this policy did not reflect or support the government's
>> overall aims.
>> -The Minister also indicated she did not want to introduce
>> separate bike
>> charges for train travel or other charges etc.
>> -The Minister apologized for the clumsy handling of the situation on
>> numerous occasions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:11:48 +1100
>> From: "Julia Blunden" <jblunden at bigpond.com>
>> Subject: Re: [publictransport] publictransport Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6
>> To: "'Public transport access for all users'"
>> <publictransport at yarrabug.org>
>> Message-ID:
>>
> <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAEtBCtMca40+25SohQ
> +3F0MKAAAAQ
> AAAAs+45hQPFtkGEWUMmkpZp8AEAAAAA at bigpond.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I was one of the people advocating a booking system for V/Line
>> trains. I
>> wouldn't envisage this applying to all V/Line trains but there are
>> some
>> trains for which reservations are required. These are often the
>> trains
> used
>> by cycle tourists, to destinations such as Wangaratta, Bairnsdale,
>> Warrnambool and Swan Hill.
>>
>> I recognise that many V/Line trains are used regularly by commuters.
> However
>> cycle tourism is also of importance and could in fact be a major
>> growth
>> industry in Victoria with all our wonderful rail trails.
>>
>> If you are organising for a group to do a cycle tour and paying to
>> book
>> train tickets and accommodation you really need certainty about
>> getting
> your
>> bikes on the train. Hopefully if enough people booked bikes onto a
>> given
>> train this could trigger the decision to add an extra luggage van to
>> accommodate them all. That's how it should work anyway.
>>
>> In fact the trains used by cycle tourers are rarely the same
>> trains as
> those
>> used by commuters. Tourers are usually heading out of the city as
> commuters
>> are heading in and vice versa.
>>
>> Julia Blunden
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> End of publictransport Digest, Vol 2, Issue 7
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